Thinking Out Loud

June 11, 2017

What Will We Do in Heaven (Part 3)

Filed under: Christianity — Tags: , , , , , , , — paulthinkingoutloud @ 8:15 am

…From there, the discussion moved on to look at the question of why “do things” now?

I think the answer to that question is because we were commanded to.

Luke 19:13b:
“Engage in business until I come back.” CSB
“See what you can earn with this while I am gone.” GNT
“Occupy til I come” KJV

— the KJV, in today’s context hasn’t got the business-specific reference. We obviously use occupy differently today but in its contemporary vagueness it makes allowance for creative projects as well.

It’s odd because sometimes we talk in terms of “doing great things for God” and yet his mandate in these verses has more of a “carry on” tone to it.

The apostle Paul talks about making good use of the time: (there’s that word again!)

Eph 5-15-16
Pay careful attention, then, to how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil.

It strikes here that we’ve been given a stewardship, not of the earth but of days, to use our talents; for God to see how we glorify him (this is, you’ll remember, the chief end of man) through labor and vocation with the gifts we’ve received.

A chapter later he writes:

Eph 6:7 NLT
Work with enthusiasm, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people.

This is where we get the idea to “do everything as unto the Lord;” the KJV translation.

The Bible is also clear that things don’t have to continue even within the confines of a lifetime. Things can be for a season.

Eccl. 3:1
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens

I’ve found Skye Jethani’s writings and podcast episodes to be helpful here in two different ways. First, he’s written and spoken at conference on the idea of “the theology of work,” but it wasn’t in the sense here, but rather the opposite, that the Millennial generation is obsessed with it. (Search his name also with respect to vocation.)

Second, he has written on “the myth of continuance;” the idea that things will always be as they now are; and I think that mindset may be creeping into the question of wanting to see things we do on earth carry forward into eternity. Personally, I see the next life as operating on an entirely different paradigm, with an entirely different set of measurements for fulfillment, accomplishment, etc. I think heaven should come with a welcome disclaimer: ‘Any similarity between this and your past life is purely coincidental.’

So we try not to read Ecclesiastes too often or become too philosophical about our current projects vis-a-vis what comes after this life. We carry on. We work hard. We rest well. We create beauty. We pursue excellence. We seek truth. We treasure friendships. And we try to honor God in all of these things. 

At the end it’s all measured. Some of it is wood, hay and straw, but hopefully some of it is gold, silver and precious stones. While “it’s all gonna burn” may be discouraging to some, trying to hold on to a sense of what we’re doing here and now as “taking it with us” then and there I think will seem rather silly. You can’t take it with you because in a glorified body in the presence of God, you wouldn’t want to take it with you.

 

 

 

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June 10, 2017

What Will We Do in Heaven? (Part Two)

Filed under: Christianity — Tags: , , , , , , , — paulthinkingoutloud @ 7:36 am

…So the conversation continued:

I find it kinda weird to think of heaven as not having growth or progression to it, in general and in regard to the new creation having a fixed population in the end apparently. I find it difficult to get excited about a place where things don’t continue to unfold.

Of course, the first thing I thought about was the article by the late Christian musician Keith Green, “Will You Be Bored in Heaven.” You can read that online at this link. Here’s a sample:

The Lord made me realize recently that if I do not absolutely relish His company now, desiring to be with Him more than anyone in the whole world, then I would not really be comfortable in heaven at all – for it is there that we will spend all eternity in the company of the Holy One who made us…

Be honest, would you be thrilled for the Lord to come back right before you get that college degree, or if you had your choice would you prefer He wait until right after graduation day? Maybe you’re engaged to be married. How would you like to go to heaven the day before your scheduled wedding? See what I mean? Paul really desired more than anything else to go to be with the Lord. We desire long, fulfilling “Christian” lives on earth – but we’re willing to die and go to heaven … when we really have to!

As the discussion continued however it occurred to me that some of the problem is that we’re currently trapped in linear time.

Progression = distance traveled (literal or figurative or incremental) over time.  OR  d/t
where the distance could be referring to a journey including accomplishments, learning, etc.

I then continued:

But if time as we know it — linearly — has ended, then the whole notion of progress collapses. If you “find it difficult to get excited about a place where things don’t continue to unfold” then your vision of the next life is too stuck in linear time. 

C. S. Lewis’s analogy of a train is helpful here. I tried to find the exact quote, but essentially it concerns the difference between being stopped at a level crossing waiting for a very long freight train to pass. One by one, the cars click by; you’re counting them; there’s been 150 so far. But up above someone is watching the entire scene from an airplane. They have a very large picture in front of them, and they are aware that there is a train on the tracks, but from that height, it does not appear to be moving at all.  

The person on the ground experiences the train linearly, but to the person in the plane the train is perceived differently; they see the first car and the last car all at once.  

Speaking of Lewis, our oldest son got involved in the discussion by email and noted, “C.S. Lewis would not concur with the idea that there isn’t progression in Heaven (see The Last Battle).”

One website offered this:

The linear nature of time can be summarized by the concept of the “arrow of time,” a phrase coined in the 1930’s. It turns out that there are many obstacles to overcome when studying the arrow of time, the first of which is to figure out why it exists to begin with. Why do people recognize a past separated from a present time, which is, in turn, separated from the future? So far philosophers and physicists have not established a definite reason.

Why does it exist to begin with? I think the Bible addresses that:

Gen 1:4 “Then he separated the light from the darkness God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.” — this where John Walton says we can read this as “And God created time.”

I shared an email with John Walton once about this:

…When you were a guest [on the Phil Vischer show] you mentioned the distinction in Genesis 1 with the words used, “And God called the light day;” and said basically this verse could be read, “And God created time.”

And then took it one step further:

In one of the ‘heaven’ verses, there is a reference something like, “We do not need the light of the sun…” because God is that light.  (Sorry, I’m writing this in a hurry!) I’m wondering if in that verse we’re witnessing the end of time; that the sun is extinguished and things return to the original order.

This would give greater meaning to the phrase, “passing into eternity.”  That at a certain point time stops in the same kind of crisis moment in which it began.  If so, this would also give some help to the “Will I be bored in heaven?” people who are continuing to think of the ‘afterlife’ in terms of linear time, and therefore aren’t wrapping their heads fully around the new order that ‘life’ becomes.

Professor Walton wrote me back and said,

You are referring to Revelation 21:23 and yes, I believe you are on the right track

So from there, the subject drifted to, “Then why do anything now?” Why indeed? If there’s no permanence to it, if it [itself] doesn’t continue into eternity, what’s the point?

We’ll look at that tomorrow in Part 3.


Image: Last Days Ministries

 

 

June 9, 2017

What Will We Do In Heaven? (Part One)

Filed under: Christianity — Tags: , , , , , — paulthinkingoutloud @ 10:43 am

If you’re a Type-A personality, you thrive on busy-ness and activity. When you think in terms of heaven — by which I mean more accurately new earth — you want to know there will be projects, and programs, and goals; oh my!

This was the topic we were wrestling with in a one hour phone conference call last night involving my wife and myself and our youngest son.

Part of it had to do with the completion of things we’ve been involved in here and now; a carry forward of the things we enjoy doing or are gifted in doing.

When it started out, we were looking at the continuation of marriage in heaven. (Though the conversation later expanded to include vocation.)

“If marriage ends in heaven, what’s the point of marriage on earth”

I did some searching online and came up with these:

Focus on the Family:

Jesus did say that life in the world to come will not include “marriage” as we know it here on earth. When questioned by the Sadducees about this, He said, “In the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven” (Matthew 22:30). Your friend may lack sensitivity, but her comment does have a strong biblical basis.What Jesus did not say was that “all earthly relationships will be nullified in heaven.” There is no good reason to put such a negative spin on His words. We will most certainly be together with those we love in the next life. We just don’t know precisely what form that “togetherness” will take.

Look at it this way. Human relationships will certainly be different in heaven. But they cannot possibly be less than what they have been on earth. They will have to be different in the sense of being something more, something better, something far more fulfilling and satisfying than we can presently imagine. That’s part of the glory of the resurrected life.

GotQuestions.org:

Most likely, there will be no marriage in heaven simply because there will be no need for it. When God established marriage, He did so to fill certain needs. First, He saw that Adam was in need of a companion. “The LORD God said, ‘It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him’” (Genesis 2:18). Eve was the solution to the problem of Adam’s loneliness, as well as his need for a “helper,” someone to come alongside him as his companion and go through life by his side. In heaven, however, there will be no loneliness, nor will there be any need for helpers. We will be surrounded by multitudes of believers and angels (Revelation 7:9), and all our needs will be met, including the need for companionship.

Second, God created marriage as a means of procreation and the filling of the earth with human beings. Heaven, however, will not be populated by procreation. Those who go to heaven will get there by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; they will not be created there by means of reproduction. Therefore, there is no purpose for marriage in heaven since there is no procreation or loneliness.

I do prefer the first answer.

But then the conversation shifted to looking at things like works of art, writing, etc. Does any of that carry forward?

I thought of a couple of scriptures:

Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away.   (Matthew 24:35 NIV)

Without exception every single translation in BibleGateway.com preserved the word words. Personally, I’ve always interpreted this as having to do with God’s laws and principles; so I read this as ‘but my truth will remain.’ (Apparently I’d make a bad Bible translator.)

The other scripture was:

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. – (1 Cor 3:12-13; KJV is how I learned this, you can substitute straw for stubble.)

The idea of this present world ending in fire is found in Revelation and has several interpretations, including a nuclear fallout resulting in a reordering of everything from plant life to continents, including even the tilt of the earth which causes the seasons. (As a Canadian, I want to be done with winter.)

Frankly, I think most of what I produce in a day falls into the wood, hay and stubble category. Especially when seen from an eternal perspective. But the original question had to do writings.

Now if we are “known as we are known” in heaven — which doesn’t actually mean what most people think it does, but let’s assume some identity carries forward — then as surely as I might walk up to David and say, ‘That was cool how you got Goliath on the first stone;’ someone might walk up to me and say, ‘I really liked that particular blog post you wrote about [subject]; it changed my life.’1

So in a sense our writings — if we are part of the one-third of the world which commits things to print — could survive in a sense.

Tomorrow we’ll get back more directly to the idea of progression in heaven; of building — I want to avoid the word working — toward a specific objective. Type A people stay tuned.


1 Maybe not this blog post.

 

 

 

September 15, 2010

Wednesday Link List

This week's links lynx is actually an Iberian Lynx

A special blessing will come your way if you click all these links and then send the list to ten friends.   Seriously.   Would I lie to you?

Actually, it’s just a list of things I found worth reading this week.   This weekly list is now consider the #1 list of links published on a Wednesday by a blog called Thinking Out Loud.   BTW, the Iberian Lynx is making what is only his second appearance here.  The first was in January this year.

  • If 56 million Bibles are printed annual in China, why would you bother to smuggle any?   Maybe because the number of Bibles produced are often English Bibles and Bible story books for kids which are exported for sale here in the west.   So the need is still there.
  • She was the champion of the use of the arts in church worship.   And still is.   But right now, former Willow Creek creative arts guru Nancy Beach is sitting in a director’s chair in Toronto on the set of a movie.
  • Sometimes you hear about charity fund raising projects and you wonder if anything is actually being accomplished.   18 months ago, I wrote about one involving worship musicians, Compassionart.   (I still enjoy the CD/DVD combo, especially the DVD.)   This past week, Rick Apperson dug up the stats on the projects accomplished by the project so far.
  • You can vote in the comments section whether or not you love this week’s YouTube clip or hate it.   But how can you not like little Mary Margaret’s flawless dramatic narration of the story of Jonah?
  • Back to the heavy stuff.  Here’s a great piece at Think Christian that helps you identify American “civil religion” when you see it. Simple marker: “Any statement that identifies the USA as God’s unique instrument for the salvation of the world is by definition blasphemous and idolatrous for a Christian to make.”
  • Mandy Thompson’s husband discovers that he didn’t actually marry that Mandy Thompson.
  • Thirty seconds of thinking:  Seth Godin on why it matters that there’s a difference to jazz versus bowling.
  • David Fitch wants you think twice about church planting in an auditorium as opposed to church planting in a living room.   Your choice could have repercussions for decades.
  • Here’s a great 5-minute animation of the Casting Crowns song, Praise You In The Storm.
  • Actually, I’ll give you a bonus video this week.   This is by Aaron Niequist, former Mars Hill (Grand Rapids) now doing the same job at Willow Creek.   The song is simply titled Changed.
  • Then again, why not go three-for-three.   This one may not fit your definition of a worship song, but it earn the adjective as much as anything else.   Check out Owl City’s Meteor Shower.
  • It’s one thing to have a more gender-inclusive translation of the Bible, but T.C. Robinson wonders aloud what do you do when “elders” in Titus 1 is gender-neutral as it is in the Common English Bible?
  • Are you a book-review blogger?  Here’s some advice to put what you do in perspective.
  • Skye Jethani is concerned because there are people attending church each week who are just plain bored.   Certainly that shouldn’t be.
  • Personal link:  This is what my oldest son gets up to when we’re not looking.   The musical instrument he’s playing here is called a Sonome.   Elsewhere on his channel you can do a quick tutorial he posted and find out how they work.   (If you’re reading this months later, it’s the Super Mario clip that was upfront when I wrote this.)
  • Our comic this week should be familiar to you.  Here we have Dolly partially deep in prayer at The Family Circus by Bil Keane.   Do you ever pray like that?   I’ll bet Mary Margaret does.

June 28, 2010

Ethics: When to Make Something Issue and When Not To

I am a complainer by nature.   I’m the guy who makes the phone call, writes the letter to the editor, or is vocal about the thing that’s “not right.”

In the area where I live, the minimum wage increased on March 31st.  As a business owner, it didn’t hit us hard, since our employees receive regular increases every 12 weeks, plus merit increases for outstanding work.   They were already ahead of the minimum — some just barely — but we were covered.   It just rendered the increases they had earned a little less meaningful; especially when future staff will arrive on the scene starting at the new higher pay levels.

However, where my youngest son works, I guess his boss didn’t get the memo.   He’s still working at the old rate.  Because it’s my son, every instinct inside of me says to mention it.   Nobody wants to see their child ripped-off.

But I know this woman; I know how much their business is struggling; I consider her a friend.   I’m grateful that she hired my son at all.  The little feedback I get is that he is doing good work, so I don’t think it’s that.

I’m just trying to practice grace on a level that is quite uncommon to me.

She hires a number of other students, and I keep hoping that one of the others will (a) notice, and (b) decide to keep her better informed.  But now it’s been three months.

What would you do?

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