Thinking Out Loud

March 2, 2018

There’s King James Only, and then There’s Hardcore King James Only

Filed under: bible, Christianity, cults — Tags: , , , , , — paulthinkingoutloud @ 7:08 am

We’re having some fun going back over old posts because it’s our 10th Anniversary week and next Wednesday is the 400th Wednesday Link List (WLL). We actually found the very first use of WLL as the title and decided to try the links to see what worked.

But in the process, we also found this and couldn’t resist posting it to Twitter. I wrote a simple set-up:

When being King James Only ain’t good enough.

If you want to be real King James Only you need to be using the British edition. Otherwise, your Christ may be the anti-Christ.

and then posted it:

I almost immediately heard back from a respected author who I consider at the epicenter of all things King James Only related. (See below for book information.)

Is this for real?

Yes, James, it is. We thought you’d seen it all!

We couldn’t find the actual page on the website of the church which had posted this, Jackson Summit Baptist Church (tag line: an independent, fundamental, Bible Teaching, conservative worship, King James using Baptist Church*) but we did find a link to the text where we found it at the now-defunct but still visible Stuff Fundies Like where it’s existence is substantiated in the comments including these:

• FWIW, “saviour” is five letters in Greek, and has three consonants in Hebrew. Of course, this makes me a “Bible corrector,” one of the worst insults that could be used by a die-hard fundamentalist.

• “Christ” has six letters in English. Rats. I used to like that title. Guess it’s satantic like savior.

• [Paragraph which precedes our quoted text]”Because the King James Bible is not copyrighted, secular publishing companies are making many minor changes to the standard text so that they can please certain groups which translates into extra sales for them.”

• I have to wonder if this affection for Elizabethan British spelling could be cured by language education, something in which most Americans are deficient but Fundies make an art form. “Savior” in a few other languages:
Retter (German, 6)
frelsara (Icelandic, 8)
frelser (Danish and Norwegian, 7)
verlos (Afrikaans, 6)
pelastaja (Finnish, 9)
salvator (Latin, 8)
salvatore (Italian, 9)
salvador (Spanish, 8)
sauveour (Old French, 8)
sauveur (French, 7)
Slánaitheoir (Irish, 12)
Is it possible that the number of letters in a word doesn’t mean squat? But then again, I’m leaning on my own understanding…

…Yes, the whole thing shuts down when you speak more than one language, but then so does the entire translation debate itself.

The way I see it, when many of these people enter eternity, the Lord is going to look at them and just say, “Seriously?”


*Their real tag line is “Holding Fast the Faithful Word,” but the above appeared right afterwards along with a short defence. Jackson Summit located in Millerton, Pennsylvania (just south of the NY state border) and is currently between pastors, so if this sort of thing is up your alley, you might want to apply. Also if you’re reading this on March 2nd, today is Carolyn Oldroyd’s birthday. And if you waded through the rest of the comments at SFL, yes they still have the SWAT ministry for teens.


I can’t recommend James White’s book enough, especially if you’re new to this discussion. Even if you don’t have a huge interest in the issue, you’ll find the parallel verse-by-verse discussion makes a great platform for personal Bible study. I actually own two different editions of this and I believe I’ve read each twice, but then again my vocation sometimes puts me in the middle of the debate. The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust The Modern Translations, Revised Edition. (Bethany House, 2009, paperback)

January 25, 2012

Wednesday Link List

The rug and lamp cozy living room theme from Grace Community Church in Fremont, Ohio as seen at the blog, Church Stage Design Ideas

Why are opening remarks called an introduction, but concluding remarks are never called an extroduction?

  • Emotionally stirring:  Caiden Hooks, eight-years-old, lost his eyes to cancer.  He shares his faith in a baptism video produced at LifePoint Church in Columbus, Ohio: “We live by faith and not by sight.”
  • Frank Viola attempts a classification of Evangelicals into four distinct streams.  It’s actually part two of an article he posted in May.
  • Last week I found myself in the middle of a discussion concerning a Catholic parent whose eight-year-old daughter is being invited to Bible study run by Evangelicals.  It’s good to see both sides of this scenario.
  • Or how about this one which goes all the way back to December 30th — that’s so last year — where he’s Baptist and her parents are Church of Christ and insist he convert before marrying her.  They say that otherwise, he is “leading her to hell.”  Yikes.
  • When a faith healer like Todd Bentley reports of crusade miracles taking place, it would be helpful if there were sufficient information to verify the claims. Update: Bentley has just been refused admittance into Australia.
  • Here’s a fun idea; the world’s most popular provider of cosmetic beauty — Photoshop — marketed as if it’s a consumer product that actually changes people in the real world.
  • Haiti for Christ was in line for much needed financial support from Mark Driscoll’s network of churches, but when they found out the organization had a female pastor, they pulled the plug on that support.
  • Comment of the week: At an article at Reformed Arminian about KJV Onlylism, this response: “I am KJVJSB — KJV Just Sounds Better. I can’t bear the ugly English in the NIV in particular. So I swap between the NKJV and the KJV…”
  • An excellent piece from across the pond about the ongoing value and need for the ministry of Christian bookstores.
  • Speaking of Driscoll, Todd Rhodes thinks we’ve gone from speaking too little about sex, to talking too much; especially Pastor Patrick Wooden. (Note: Audio clip content is unnecessarily and uncomfortably graphic.)
  • One of the worst things about being newly — or not so newly — married is hearing the same question over and over and over and over again: So when are you having kids?
  • Meanwhile, over at Mandy Thompson’s house, the topic of contention is FDT or Family Devotion Time; somewhat complicated by the fact that he’s the preacher and she’s the worship leader.
  • Often by promoting a moral high ground, the church unknowingly is pushing sexually active young people toward having abortions.
  • Polish pop star Doda this week was fined the equivalent of $14.95 — no, make that $1,495 — by a Polish court for comments she made in 2009 suggesting the Bible’s writers were drunk and on drugs.  Doda disagreed: “If someone is a deep believer, I would not think such words could offend someone.”
  • How about a blog that mixes video games and theology?  That’s what David is trying to do at Reclaimer 105.  Or maybe you’re in youth ministry and just need a good game analogy to get a message across.
  • Still lots of heat over a July piece here concerning Perry Noble’s charge to his congregation, ‘Show up on time for church, or else.’
  • Martin Luther King, Jr. Day last week, turned up a rare 30-second clip of King’s humorous side when he guested on The Tonight Show.
  • So why is the Pajama Diaries comic here today? It was the words “Sunday School Tuition” that got me. We use the phrase in one context and forget that it means something entirely different in a Jewish context. Besides, most church children’s programs don’t charge fees, while the various synagogues I checked online were charging between $200 and $550 per child.

April 22, 2010

Better Than Roberts Rules of Order

You can’t expect to run a society by the rules of parliamentary debate, but it often seems like a little bit of civility and decency might be in order.   So it seems rather timely that George Washington’s Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior in Company and Conversation should be released by so many publishers over the last few years.

American kids grow up knowing the rules as part of a penmanship exercise, but the title is foreign to Canucks, Brits, Kiwis and Aussies.

Many different publishers have availed themselves of this public domain title with 24 editions printed since 2002 currently available.

One publisher, Applewood, has the lone currently-available pre-2000 edition in print and markets the book with this history:

“Copied out by hand as a young man aspiring to the status of Gentleman, George Washington’s 110 rules were based on a set of rules composed by French Jesuits in 1595. The first English edition of these rules was available in Francis Hawkins’ Youths Behavior, or Decency in Conversation Amongst Men, which appeared in 1640, and it is from work that Washington seems to have copied. The rules as Washington wrote them out are a simplified version of this text. However much he may have simplified them, these precepts had a strong influence on Washington, who aimed to always live by them. The rules focus on self-respect and respect for others through details of etiquette. The rules offer pointers on such issues as how to dress, walk, eat in public, and address one’s superiors.”

Prices vary from $5.99 US for a simple 52-page edition to $37.95 US for a 180-page edition with commentary.

However, you can actually read all 110 rules at this Wikipedia page (#91: Make no Shew of taking great Delight in your Victuals, Feed not with Greediness; cut your Bread with a Knife, lean not on the Table neither find fault with what you Eat) … though it’s in desperate need of a Eugene-Peterson-Message-style update.   Or maybe they can get James Reimann, the guy who updated My Utmost for His Highest.

On the other hand, KJV-only advocates should feel right at home with the language this title presents.

Better yet, here’s a question to end on:  Do they still teach any of this stuff to kids today?   Maybe we need this to be more than a writing exercise.

Related posts in this blog:  Don’t Blame Seniors (Aug. 2009)

Another reason you’ve heard the word civility in the last few days:  The head honcho of the Assemblies of God removes his name from The Covenant of Civility, perhaps rather missing the whole point in the process.   Read that story here.

March 27, 2010

Sometimes You Just Know

Part One — The Apocrypha

There are a number of reasons why the Apocrypha doesn’t appear in the majority of Bibles that will be sold today.   The issues of canonicity (it’s a word now!) are varied and complex, and have more to do with authorship and authenticity.

But after reading almost every chapter and verse several years ago, I sensed there was a different “tenor” to those books.   That’s subjective on my part, and I know that by applying the same criteria, others have rejected the book of Esther or Song of Solomon, while still others will be quick to remind us all that the original edition of the 1611 King James Bible actually contained these extra books, something KJV-only advocates are not quick to mention.

But sometimes you just know.   It just doesn’t feel right.   I think that’s the application of the gift of discernment.    There is much accuracy in the books of I and II Maccabees.   There is much wisdom in the book of Sirach.  But these things are true of a host of extra-Biblical writings, not to mention the contribution of contemporary authors.

Part II — God Calling

I’m all for devotional readings to start or end the day — I include a link on this blog’s sidebar to Daily Encouragement in case you missed this morning — but I’m not sure that it should be one’s entire source of spiritual input for the day.

Some of the books available are published by general-market publishers and simply contain the odd Bible verse here and there.   Others are simply too short.   And then there’s God Calling, written by “The Two Listeners” and edited by A. J. Russell.

This book came out of the Oxford Group (don’t Google ‘Oxford Movement,’ that’s different) which also was the ground zero for the Alcoholics Anonymous program.    The unknown authors ‘received’ the book through a process called ‘automatic writing,’ sitting with pads of paper in a room and waiting for God to speak to them.

Several years ago it’s origins were reconsidered in an article in the Christian bookstore trade magazine Christian Retailing which resulted in many such stores pulling it off the shelf.    Others don’t have a problem with it however, and two Christian publishing giants, Baker Books and Barbour Publishing, each continue distribution to this day.

If you negate the book’s orthodoxy on the basis of automatic writing alone, you’re also negating every prophetic word ever published by Charismatics, the “Footprints” poem and the book and video of The Father’s Love Letter. (And yes, there are some reading this who are quite prepared to do this.)

But God Calling presents other challenges as well, and if someone can find one or two good critiques online, I’d be happy to post them here and in my book industry blog.

There is a huge sometimes-you-just-know factor at play here.

Part III — 66 Love Letters

Applying all the above discussion to a new book by respected Christian author Larry Crabb, 66 Love Letters, (Thomas Nelson) it’s hard to see a difference.    The book is based on major themes from each of the 66 books in the core Biblical canon, but again written in the first person as though from God.

I haven’t read the book, but I subscribed by e-mail to the Lenten reflections based on 40 of the 66 chapters.   After negotiating the first few, I found myself skimming the remainder or filing them away for future reference if I ever wanted to consider those major themes.

It’s a personal thing; I just find there’s a danger in putting words in God’s mouth in a format like this.    I’m not questioning the theology or the doctrine contained in Crabb’s writing, and it’s not about him in particular.  And I am in no way dispensational when it comes to “Thus Saith the Lord” prophetic messages from persons having that gift, if it’s truly God speaking.

It just doesn’t feel right; it just doesn’t resonate with my personality or with my spirit; and it brings me back to the same position:  Sometimes you just know.

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