Thinking Out Loud

August 26, 2017

Spiritual Alignment in Marriage

Yesterday I had a nearly one-hour conversation with a couple who belong to a denomination which I can easily say would be somewhat fringe, and one I had never heard of before. While we agreed on many things, we differed as to the terminology; and while many elements of our worship services would be similar, there were some that would no doubt be unfamiliar. It was interesting, to say the least.

I’m very hesitant to take this conversation and turn it into blog material, but there is one particular aspect to our discussion which struck me.

When this couple spoke about their doctrine and beliefs, they spoke as one voice.

That is to say, their depth of understanding was at the same level for both, and never once did they even hint at contradicting each other on the interpretation of what it is their church teaches.

The cynic in me would want to suggest that perhaps they have simply been programmed with the same ‘party line’ on these matters, but their passion was too intense for these to be rote responses. And their passion was indeed great.

They certainly left me thinking and wanting to explore some of these areas further. I wish I had recorded the conversation. I would be unlikely to sign on to the entirety of their Biblical approach, but they left earning my highest respect.

But it was the marital aspect I wanted to leave you with here. The husband and wife were as unified as any two people I’ve ever seen, especially in a discussion that was high intensity. The things they spoke of really mattered, and their desire wasn’t to hit me over the head with their hermeneutic framework, but rather they seemed to care that I also take what they said to heart. They also equally enjoyed spending the time together doing this; neither was more or less in a hurry to leave than the other.

So today’s question is for married couples: Do you speak with a single voice on matters of Christian doctrine, Christian ethics, and Biblical understanding? Or is one voice stronger than the other; does one defer to the other? Or do you differ on matters of doctrinal standing? Or are you perhaps in a marriage where one is a believer and one is not?

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April 20, 2017

How Do You Spell Determination?

There’s an audio clip at the end of this post which may or may not interest some of you. What I want to focus on is not only what’s on that 16-minute audio but also how it came to be there.

The bookstore my wife and I own inadvertently sponsored a YouTube channel. I mean that in the sense that we wanted to call it “The Lost Song Collection” and post songs from the Jesus Music era, a term referencing the days before CCM was called Contemporary Christian Music. Things nobody else had posted. Things sourced from vinyl records. But before we knew what we were doing, the channel had been named after the bookstore and it was too much of a hassle to change it.

One of the things we posted there was a demo of a Christian radio show from that time period, “A Joyful Noise” by Frank Edmondson under the on-air name Paul Baker. But I also wanted to include another I owned, “The Rock That Never Rolls” with Dale Yancy aka Brother Dale.

This was a demo of a Christian radio show from the ’70s that would be scheduled on non-Christian radio stations which at the time had obligations to include public service or religious content, but didn’t want to lose their regular listeners with programming that was uncool. Program demos like this did not include songs, or if they did, the songs were “telescoped” to allow station Program Directors to hear a variety of content in a short time. The show originated in Burlington, VT.

At the time this was produced, the show was airing in Chicago, Montreal, San Diego, Raleigh, Tulsa, Cincinnati, Dallas, Nashville and Honolulu. The show included interviews, comedy, music and mock commercials. It was sent to me back in the day because we were hoping to find a way to bring the show to Ontario. I really wish there were more shows like this today, though Brant Hansen’s work comes to mind.

I looked high and low for my copy of this. It had been sent to me on a five-inch reel-to-reel in a box with a bright green sticker, but I couldn’t locate it, and wasn’t sure what I would do anyway, since the R2R machine has been sitting under my desk unused for 25+ years.

But I knew I had a cassette of it, which, thanks to a flooded basement, we found last week. The problem was, the cassette was jammed and then broke. Fortunately, my wife is very determined.

First, she tried to loosen up the tape in the cassette housing, and when that didn’t work she broke the tape free of the plastic case. At that point I thought the project was doomed. Then she tried to spool the tape off so she could load it into another case, but it kept sticking. So she soaked the tape in water to loosen it up and then spooled the cassette tape on to an empty film canister, and then reloaded into the other housing, sealed the case and placed it in a cassette player and converted it to digital. There are some skips where part of the new cassette continued to jam, but the overall sound quality is surprisingly good for something which survived a flood.

There are probably archaeologists who haven’t gone to as much trouble to reconstruct a relic as Ruth did to restore this. Or crime scene investigators. (Please do not start mailing us your problem cassettes.) I wish we’d taken some pictures.

My wife hates to back down from a fight. And she knew it meant a lot to me. That’s the main thing; she knew it would make me happy. So she took a half day to attempt what I considered impossible. And she knew that if I thought the radio show was all that interesting, someone else might as well. 

I guess radio shows like this really mattered to me back then. While radio isn’t a force in either evangelism or introducing new music as it once was, this represented a golden age for what was then Jesus Music. You never knew who was listening and stories abounded of people who credit their life turnaround to randomly tuning the AM or FM dial.

So how do I spell determination? R-u-t-h. She pulled it off after all. I should never have doubted!

Sit back and travel back in time and enjoy, The Rock That Never Rolls: The Sound of Eternity…

The video ends with some classic KYMS radio jingles which were on the end of the cassette.

March 26, 2017

Should Christians Have Sex on Sunday?

This graphic image goes in a different direction than today’s topic, but I couldn’t resist including it.

This topic occurred to me while listening to a talk radio show last week. They weren’t addressing this specifically, but I decided to see what the internet had to say…

First, although our title says “Sunday” I thought if anyone has an opinion on this, the Seventh Day Adventists may be more schooled than most in the area of “Sabbath” and found this article:

…There are two schools of thought:

1)   The Sabbath is a holy day of rest onto the Lord and one should not engaged in sex on the Sabbath: Those who hold to this view, argue primarily from Isaiah’s warned against finding one’s own pleasure on the Sabbath:
 “If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honorable; and shalt honor him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:”  Isa 58:13 They conclude that Sabbath is not the day for sex because sex is finding one’s own pleasure.

2)   Sabbath is a holy day and Marriage is a holy institution therefore sex can be done on the Sabbath: The supporters of this view contend that both the Sabbath and Marriage were instituted by God and as such sex is definately sacred, especially since God only sanctioned sex in the institution of marriage. They further argue that the Apostle Paul gave strong support for sex on the Sabbath when he said: “Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency” 1 Cor 7:5. The argument is that couples are not required to fast and pray every Sabbath. Some even go as far as to say that since Adam and Eve were married on the sixth day, God would not require them to wait that long before consummating their marriage.

Next stop — and the internet is filled with articles that can prove a distraction on this, so be discerning — was an article on whether or not it is appropriate to have sex during Lent. I figured that was timely so after a good explanation of what Lent is, there was a longer answer on whether a couple could have sex during days of fasting:

…I think we often fail to focus on the one time it is permissible to mutually decide not to have sex:  When you have decided to devote yourself to prayer and fasting, for a time, you MAY decide, mutually, to also refrain from sex.  To deprive each other, again, mutually.  This doesn’t mean you can say to your spouse “well, I’m praying and fasting, so no sex”.

So, if you cannot unilaterally decide that you cannot deprive your spouse of sex, but you may unilaterally decide that you, yourself, are going to pray and fast, then by simple logic, it must be that a couple can pray and fast, and still have sex.  So, should Christians have sex while fasting?  It’s up to you, together.  No one gets veto rights.  You have to both agree to not have sex, or else it’s back to business as God intended: frequent and awesome.

But, I want to bring up another point:  I think there is a reason why this is the only acceptable time to decide, together, not to have sex.  I’ve done some fasting in the past.  I once did a 16-day water fast (nothing but water).  The most startling thing I noticed:  I had absolutely no sex drive half way through it.  Seriously, it was gone.  I was shocked.  I’ve never not had a strong sex drive, for as long as I could remember.  In fact, I wrote about it in this post.  I think Paul must have known about this.  Why else say that every other time that you deprive each other, you are leaving them open to temptation, but during prayer AND fasting, it’s okay?  From my perspective, it’s obvious: you’re not as tempted when fasting because your body goes into survival mode.  It’s not interested in sex, it’s more interested in surviving until the next day.

So, in the end, I think you have to decide as a couple. If you are praying AND fasting, have the conversation about what to do with sex.

The article linked in the above excerpt is from Ministry Magazine and offers a lengthy, historical discussion on this topic:

There is no textual evidence to indicate that sex was forbidden on the Sabbath or the Day of Atonement. Rene Gehring argues that in the Hebrew Bible, sexual intercourse within marriage is not ritually defiling at all.

The next stop was a Jewish perspective, sourced at Yahoo Forums:

Under Jewish tradition, sex is advised on the sabbath.

In Jewish law, sex is not considered shameful, sinful or obscene. Sex is not thought of as a necessary evil for the sole purpose of procreation. Although sexual desire comes from the yetzer ra (the evil impulse), it is no more evil than hunger or thirst, which also come from the yetzer ra. Like hunger, thirst or other basic instincts, sexual desire must be controlled and channeled, satisfied at the proper time, place and manner. But when sexual desire is satisfied between a husband and wife at the proper time, out of mutual love and desire, sex is a mitzvah.

Probably the most interesting answer came from Nigeria. I’ll include the question from a pastor’s wife (implied) and the answer that was given:

[Q.] What is your take on a couple having sex before going to church. For instance, I discover my hubby doesn’t like having sex any time we have to go to church or the Saturday before Sunday because he feels it would reduce his anointing. I am not finding this funny at all and it is beginning to look as if I am sent to destroy his ministry by trying to have sex with him. Please what is your take on this matter sir?

[A.] Thanks for your question and the trust you have in us at TheCable to be able to do justice to this issue. I wouldn’t know the paradigm your man is operating with but I have met a number of people with the same beliefs. It is quite common among some religious leaders and it could have been part of the ministerial ethics that they were taught from the Bible school or it could have been borne out of personal revelation.

I tried to get a Catholic perspective, but the site containing the “Sex after Mass” article wasn’t loading, but apparently the sex before going to church is a theme in some marriages; though this question was a bit too graphic to quote here.

I would probably put the greatest weight on the first two responses, but unless I was completely out to lunch with search terms, I was surprised there weren’t one or two more articles on this subject. Feel free to mention something in the comments, I might amend the article later. (See also yesterday’s post here for something possibly somewhat related.)

So a general answer today would be, yes.  


Update: After posting this and re-reading the responses I collected, I was surprised that given the preponderance of Christian marriage resources, there was so little mainstream Evangelical answers on this question. Perhaps this just isn’t a concern, or perhaps I didn’t dig deep enough.

March 24, 2017

Keeping Up the Infield Chatter

Filed under: Christianity, family, marriage — Tags: — paulthinkingoutloud @ 8:06 am

Not growing up playing a lot of sandlot baseball, and not having friends like Charlie Brown and Lucy, I didn’t get to hear the phrase, “Keep up the infield chatter;” until I watched the Peanuts specials on TV. The phrase refers to encouragement yelled to a pitcher or batter on your own team such as,

  • “You can do it, ______”
  • “Knock it out of the park”
  • “Easy out! Easy out!”

And probably many similar things that I wouldn’t know about.

In marriage, we’re often told that communication is the number one factor determine the success or failure of the relationship. Having a wife who is very much a natural introvert, and is therefore very reticent or taciturn, I have over the many years we’ve been together often encouraged her to “Keep up the infield chatter;” but not in the baseball sense used above.

Rather, I think in marriage communication comes in two forms:

  1. Deeper, meaningful conversation
  2. Relaying everyday common information.

Here’s what I mean by the former:

  • hopes, dreams, aspirations
  • creating holiday plans
  • spiritual conversations; Bible topics
  • political, economic or environmental ideologies
  • things intimate (conversations that could never be shared outside the marriage)

You get the idea. In contrast we have the second type of communication:

  • who we’re ordering the pizza from
  • where we put the postage stamps
  • a rattle we’ve noticed in the minivan’s front end
  • the concert that’s been cancelled
  • noting that we’ve run out of milk

These are important, but they’re important in a different way. The dinner decision has to be made. The stamps have to be found to mail a payment. The van needs to be looked at. The concert things means we have an extra night free but we need to make sure we get a refund. And at some point really soon, someone’s going to want to glass of milk.

Failing to mention any of these is serious. It’s the everyday stuff of running a household and managing family life. True, it’s not fodder for high-level, philosophical, concept-based discussion. (Though it could be: “Why do we have a minivan?”) However, if you subtract it, the fallout from communication that didn’t happen is potentially more damaging than not sharing your dreams, ideal holiday, Bible doctrine perspective, etc.

At times like this I can’t help but be drawn back to the “little foxes that eat the vines.” That’s a Bible metaphor for the little things that can do serious damage.

Failing to communicate is one of those. The solution is keeping the lines of communication open; keeping up the infield chatter however you define it.

 

 

February 14, 2017

I’d Marry You Again

Filed under: Christianity, family, marriage, personal — Tags: , — paulthinkingoutloud @ 8:30 am

ruth-3-pictures

In addition to Valentine’s Day, it’s also our anniversary. Not just any anniversary, but one of those special ones that ends in a ‘5’ or a ‘0.’ A really special one.

Where did the time go?

I decided that for today’s article, I would share the text of a poem I found on a card that my father sent my mother on an equally special anniversary. Last week I put it in a very safe place. You know how those things go, right.

It was titled, “I’d Marry You Again.” You’ve possibly seen it on cards and on plaques and on goodness knows what else. But the one you’ve seen is probably the version credited to Anne Peterson. It ends,

…With all the ups and downs we’ve had
In learning to be friends
I know that in this heart of mine
I’d marry you again.

In looking around online however, I found Lynette, a blogger in South Africa who had posted a version of the poem credited to Carla Flamm. Lynette’s blog seems aimed at creative crafters and scrapbookers and I clicked the header to see if she was still writing and she is. She says her blog is, “The place where I am free to share my love for my Lord and Saviour.” That header reads, “My life: Perfectly imperfect.” So for all those reasons, this poem seemed to fit like a glove

Do you know how much I love you
How much you mean to me
I can’t imagine my life without you
My world would be empty

It seems like only yesterday
I first looked in your eyes
But the years have passed so quickly
Much to my surprise

The life we’ve made together
Our children and our home
The memories we have to cherish
How much our love has grown

Through the good times and the bad
You’ve been right by my side
You’ve made me smile, made me laugh
And wiped my tears when I have cried

You are my partner, my companion
My lover, and my best friend
If I had the chance to do it over
I’d marry you again.

I’m writing this a few days ahead, and things are a little hectic. It’s a perfectly imperfect day. But I have so very, very much to be thankful for looking back over all these ends-in-a-five-or-a-zero years. I really married up. I got the better of the deal. And it’s just for that reason that she would never admit this. She accepts me despite my brokenness, my sometimes cold responses, my frequent inability to make decisions, and even the odd bad habit. I have the greatest difficulty accepting that; accepting that I am so very blessed.

Happy Anniversary, Ruth. We’ll celebrate that in a few months when the weather is warmer. You are so intelligent, so gifted and so wonderfully unpredictable. For today, Happy Valentine’s Day.

I’m so thankful I have someone to say that to.

September 10, 2016

Quick Ordination to Perform a Wedding or Two

Filed under: Christianity, marriage — Tags: , , , , — paulthinkingoutloud @ 7:52 am

Wedding RingsMatt Marino is an Episcopal Priest who in a previous lifetime spent 17 years with Young Life. He blogs at The Gospel Side.  Several months ago — admittedly at the start of the wedding season in North America — he posted this article. At one time I tried to pursue ordination through an independent organization, and never went through with it because every organization I contacted assumed I was just another guy wanting to perform weddings…

No. You don’t want your uncle Jimmy to get ordained online to do your wedding.

It is trendy to have someone you know buy an online ordination and do your wedding ceremony. Every year I have multiple (otherwise solid) Christians contact me to ask where and how to find the “least weird” way to be ordained. Here is my response:

It is an honor to be asked, and good on you for wanting to make it as right as possible. Unfortunatelywhat you are asking just isn’t. Would you ask a teacher help you get a “less weird” online teaching certificate? Or a doctor to help you get a “less weird” online medical license? Getting ordained through Billy Bob’s Online Church of the Twenty-Buck Blessing may seem like a good idea, but it overlooks the training and experience needed to do a wedding well. A teacher does more than pull off classroom management as a one-time substitute, and a doctor more than demonstrate mastery of the tongue depressor in a routine visit. In the same way, a pastor does much more than simply read a wedding service.

Your friend will be putting someone who has never done a wedding in charge of the single most expensive and important party of their life. Will they also be asking a friend who takes nice Instagram pics to be photographer? A minister is air-traffic control. They make all of the many parts and people move in coordination. Brides are under a lot of stress. They do not need a rookie at the helm.

More than that, a non-ordained friend doing the ceremony is a bad setup for the marriage. Marriage is a sacred act originating in the mind of God. Marriage is tough. It needs God’s participation to have more than a Powerball player’s chance of making it after you scratch the ink off and see what resides below the surface of each of us. There are important roles in a wedding a friend can handle, but when it comes to making the vows, you want to have every bit of oomph possible behind those promises. You want a couple, even ones without faith involvement, to say, “I promised God and God’s representative in front of all of my friends and family in that church that I will love this girl/boy no matter how bad a time I am having of it. I’d better make good on this!”

Do them a favor, ask them to find someone duly ordained. Probably not what you wanted to hear.🙂

May 9, 2016

Meet Evangelical Vaughn Ohlman: Ranker.com’s Worst Person of the Week

Girls-are-like-apples-on-trees

Image: Raw Story screenshot from Let Them Marry

vaughn-ohlman-photo-u1Last Wednesday we linked to a story at HomeschoolersAnonymous.com, a website we’ve been aware of for a long time. Two newer stories focused on concern over the invitation to early marriage advocate Vaughn Ohlman to speak at a homeschool conference, as well as an updated story concerning a decision by a Salvation Army camp in Kansas to retract a previous arrangement whereby his organization, Let Them Marry, would have hosted a “Get Them Married…” 3-day ‘conference’ at their facility. That got us curious, so we started to delve into the story on the weekend.

Let Them Marry has stripped their website to bare bones, apparently unable to handle the recent publicity.  More details were available at Vyckie Garrison’s Patheos blog No Longer Quivering which we’ve also been aware of for a long time. In a May 6th piece she links to an article in the Kansas City Star.

…Vaughn Ohlman, who works as an ambulance driver in Schulenberg, Texas, operates a blog and website devoted to “the idea of Christians focusing more on young, fruitful, Godly marriages – getting rid of some of so many of the obstacles that stand in the way,” he said in an e-mail.

According to biblical interpretations  posted on the site, supporters believe it best for girls to be married before age 20, and that their consent is not necessary.

“Scripture speaks of the father of the son ‘taking a wife’ for his son, and the father of the bride ‘giving’ her to her husband,” Ohlman writes, citing passages from Jeremiah, Judges, Ezra and other books.

“It gives example after example of young women being given to young men, without the young woman even being consulted, and often, in some of the most Godly marriages in Scripture, the young man is not consulted.”

How early should girls marry? For some, as young as age 13, says the Let Them Marry website.

According to Ohlman, a girl is ready for marriage when she has breasts, which “promise enjoyment for her husband.” A girl also should be “ready to bear children” and “ready for sexual intercourse sexually and emotionally,” Ohlman writes.

“We do not endorse marriage at ages as young as twelve.”

After news of the Wichita retreat began circulating online Thursday, Ohlman took to his blog to address critics who said the concept of the retreat was offensive and possibly illegal.

Under Kansas law, no one under the age of 15 can marry. Eighteen is the minimum age, although 16- and 17-year-olds can get married with parental consent…

Ohlman’s Book What Are You Doing? has a website (possibly also recently sanitized), and the Amazon page doesn’t provide previews. However there are two reader reviews:

I have often been tempted to write a book on covenant, Christian marriage that I would call, “I Kissed Courtship Goodbye.” The reason for the title would be to address a particular definition of courtship that in essence, operates as two families “dating” each other. It subconsciously goes something like this, “we’ll let our children court for awhile and see how things go, but if things don’t go the direction that we want to, or we discover that they just aren’t “compatible” we can just cut it off and there is no harm done.”… My wife’s and my relationship and attraction grew naturally and as time went by after our covenant making we both revealed and discovered how we, over time, came to the point where we could not see ourselves marrying anyone other than each other. That simple. Relationships are complicated. They are complicated because we complicate them. But as we grow spiritually, mature, and become more like Christ and wisely meditate on the words of God which were not spoken vain, we apply the principles resulting from this learned understanding to gradually and incrementally casting off the complications that man creates and simultaneously embrace the simplicity and beauty of God’s created order. “What are you Doing?” is a casual, and I believe, effective tool of exercising our minds to think more biblically in the realm of how two people covenant together in marriage…


…The basis of the book’s betrothal solution is that any man and woman who are not celibate and are willing to “do good” to a mate are eligible to be married to one another. Further, since this sexual interest is present, they should not seek a potential spouse themselves since that will inevitably lead to some sort of sexually charged relationship. Even a merely verbal relationship will lead to sexual thoughts that defraud the couple if they do not eventually become man and wife. Therefore, the fathers should be the ones to initiate any possible discussions of marriage. The man and woman can certainly have a friendly relationship, but considering each other as potential mates can lead to trouble.

Some will decry the involvement of parents in the choice of a spouse as “arranged marriage”. But careful readers will understand that the author is not proposing a medieval plot where a young girl is chained in a dungeon awaiting puberty and marriage to a toothless old man. Rather, sensible families will welcome a reintroduction of a multi-generational vision in which parents guide their children through life’s major milestones…

Ohlman’s own daughter-in-law describes the process in her blog PrinceCharmingDiapers.com in a post entitled The Betrothal Story:

…I should note that people often get the impression that we got married on blind faith, simply trusting that God would miraculously sort out any difficulties which came along afterwards. I think this is, in large part, a product of people’s own insecurities: they cannot imagine trusting in a vetting process in which they did not directly participate. But when I say “months” of communication went between the two fathers, I hope it’s obvious that we weren’t doing anything on “blind faith”.

Indeed, what really happened is that Joshua and I trusted our respective fathers to do the vetting for us… and to do a much better job than we could have done. Our dads weren’t dealing with raging hormones, crazy emotions, or an overwhelming desire to ignore important issues simply for the sake of getting married. My dad was able to take a serious look at Joshua’s character in a way I would have been unequipped (and unlikely) to do.

Finally, the entire Ohlman family -excluding Joshua- arrived one Wednesday in August (Joshua couldn’t fly in until Friday due to work). The days before Joshua arrived were mildly awkward because everyone was pretending they didn’t know what was going on and that the Ohlmans, a family from Texas, “just happened” to have stopped by to visit a family they’d never met before… in Michigan. At the same time, however, our families hit it off immediately and we felt like life-long friends right away.

When Joshua finally arrived my dad met him at the airport, took him out to lunch, and “grilled” him. Satisfied that he’d done his due diligence, my dad brought Joshua home and introduced him to us all. Dad then took me on a walk and nervously asked me to assure him I was all right being betrothed to someone who was still, emotionally and practically, a stranger. I assured him that I was more than “all right” with it and that I had already grown to love his family.

Less than two hours later we held a small ceremony in our back yard. My dad and Mr. Ohlman gave a short sermon/admonition, each to their respective children… and then my dad put my hand in Joshua’s, thereby giving me away to the man I henceforth have had the privilege of calling my husband! Barring family members, I had never held a man’s hand before. It was so special to do so with only one man, and only after being covenanted with him for life.

I can’t tell you how deliriously happy I was at that point. To have blissfully skipped through all of the nerves, awkwardness, and — even worse — possible heartbreak of courtship in just two hours. To be completely secure in my relationship with Joshua from day one…

Ohlman’s blog, The Practical Theonomist records the text of the covenant — this is the first half — as posted in August, 2013:

It is with great joy in the mighty blessing of the Lord that we, the undersigned, in obedience to God do Covenant or Witness thereto that:
Joshua Phillip Ohlman
and
Laura Marie Camp
Are this  the 23rd day of August, 2013 bound in the sight of God and man in the unbreakable Covenant of Betrothal; are now husband and wife to each other; and await the blessed day when they will come together physically.
In this covenant we bind ourselves or our children to the following:
A lifelong continual sexual union in which the body of each spouse belongs to the other.
A union which shall be ever open to the blessing of children; and where the children shall be raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
A union in which the husband shall love his wife, as Christ loves the Church; washing her in the water of the word.
A union in which the wife shall love and respect her husband, love her children, and keep the home; helping raise her children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
A union, under Christ, with the husband as its head, the wife as his submissive helpmeet, and the children bound in obedience to their parents…

On the Progressive Atheist channel at Patheos, the blog Progressive Secular Humanist was able to capture some of the scriptural basis for Let Them Marry before the website was wiped:

Doesn’t a legitimate marriage require the consent of both the people marrying?

Scripture speaks of the father of the son “taking a wife” for his son, and the father of the bride “giving” her to her husband (Jeremiah 29: 6; Judges 21: 7; Ezra 9:12; Nehemiah 10: 30; 1 Corinthians 7:36-38). It gives example after example of young women being given to young men, without the young woman even being consulted…

A “bride price” is anything paid or given by the man or his representative at the time of his betrothal or receiving his bride.

Scripture certainly teaches about it… The law concerning bride price (Exodus 22:16-17) indicates that . . . the bride price was a normal part of the marriage process.

The bride price plays a significant function: It shows the woman’s value, and the point isn’t that the father gets the money but that he keeps it for his daughter, if her husband should ever abandon her.

At the website ChristianToday.com, we learn there is also an historical claim:

Perhaps his most controversial teaching is his advocacy of “young marriage”. He cites Calvin’s view that a woman is in “the flower of her age” between 12 and 20, John Gill’s figure of 12 and a half and Martin Luther’s of 15-18. However, he says: “We do not endorse marriage at ages as young as twelve,” and he flatly denies endorsing paedophilia. He adds: “But we are certainly in agreement with the commentators that marriage (in order to be timely and to accomplish its purposes) ought to happen before the age of twenty for almost everyone.”

While Ohlman’s website has been cleaned up, we do have the benefit of a Google Cache of his FAQ page. This question and answer were carefully worded:

Can a betrothed couple sleep together? No one that is not betrothed should have sex. Such sex is either fornication, adultery, or sexually perverse (as in Sodomy).

What is usually meant by this question is if the couple who is ONLY betrothed can have intercourse, or engage in other sexual activities. My answer would be that the action is legal but not possible.

You see, what separates being ‘only betrothed’ and being fully married is the consummation. So the question is kind of like asking if you can paint on a blank canvas. You are allowed to, obviously, assuming it is your canvas, but if you do it isn’t blank.

Traditionally, including Biblical tradition, the time of consummation includes a celebration called a wedding, marriage supper, marriage feast, or the like. The friends and family of the bride and groom come together to celebrate the new sexual union, the potential for offspring, the joining of the families, and the like. In our modern age we have come, erroneously, to see that ‘wedding’ as the event that authorizes the physical joining (at least in the Church—the world now largely sees the ‘consent’ of the couple as what authorizes sexual union, consent focused on an event by event and sometimes even intra-event basis—a complex subject and beyond the scope of this FAQ).

But Biblically, this was not so. Of those marriages where we have some details, only some of them take place in the context of some kind of celebration. And no law requires, or even hints at, these celebrations. Instead, it speaks of special protections for the betrothed man, so that he can immediately consummate with his new wife before going off to battle, etc.

So there’s an overview, all of which brings us to Ranker.com’s #1 rating of Vaughn Ohlman as the week’s worst person

So is this just a fringe movement? Again at Patheos blog, Love, Joy, Feminism, writer Libby Anne writes:

I really wish I could just gawk at this, I really do, but I was homeschooled and I knew families who were into things like this. If this had been around when I was a teen, it is very likely that families I knew would have gone—and it is barely possible that my own family might have considered it (though I very much hope they wouldn’t have). These are real people we’re talking about, and the number of fellow homeschool alumni I know who entered into early marriages like these and are now divorced seems to be growing by the month. Need I add that young women typically exit these marriages with little in the way of education, skills, or career prospects?


Media coverage: The video below contains some errors; online consensus seems to be that Ohlman is not connected to the Duggar Family. Warning: There are also language issues in the commentary.

 

May 2, 2016

This Sunday’s “Mother’s Day” is Better as “Women’s Day”

One of the things that struck me when reading Pete Wilson’s book, Plan B, was the many mentions of infertility. I remember thinking, ‘This is a big issue among people in his congregation.’ And maybe for some of you.

With Mother’s Day happening this Sunday in many parts of the world, Russell Moore has written an ever-timely article on infertility. We link to Dr. Moore quite often here, but I don’t know if we had ever committed wholesale theft of one of his blog posts before stealing this one three years ago. But it needed to be seen, and still does. You are encouraged to click through to read it.

Mother’s Day is a particularly sensitive time in many congregations, and pastors and church leaders often don’t even know it. This is true even in congregations that don’t focus the entire service around the event as if it were a feast day on the church’s liturgical calendar. Infertile women, and often their husbands, are still often grieving in the shadows.

Mothers Day and the ChurchIt is good and right to honor mothers. The Bible calls us to do so. Jesus does so with his own mother. We must recognize though that many infertile women find this day almost unbearable. This is not because these women are (necessarily) bitter or covetous or envious. The day is simply a reminder of unfulfilled longings, longings that are good.

Some pastors, commendably, mention in their sermons and prayers on this day those who want to be mothers but who have not had their prayers answered. Some recognize those who are mothers not to children, but to the rest of the congregation as they disciple spiritual daughters in the faith. This is more than a “shout-out” to those who don’t have children. It is a call to the congregation to rejoice in those who “mother” the church with wisdom, and it’s a call to the church to remember those who long desperately to hear “Mama” directed at them.

What if pastors and church leaders were to set aside a day for prayer for children for the infertile?

In too many churches ministry to infertile couples is relegated to support groups that meet in the church basement during the week, under cover of darkness. Now it’s true that infertile couples need each other. The time of prayer and counsel with people in similar circumstances can be helpful.

But this alone can contribute to the sense of isolation and even shame experienced by those hurting in this way. Moreover, if the only time one talks about infertility is in a room with those who are currently infertile, one is probably going to frame the situation in rather hopeless terms.

In fact, almost every congregation is filled with previously infertile people, including lots and lots who were told by medical professionals that they would never have children! Most of those (most of us, I should say) who fit into that category don’t really talk about it much because they simply don’t think of themselves in those terms. The baby or babies are here, and the pain of the infertility has subsided. Infertile couples need to see others who were once where they are, but who have been granted the blessing they seek.

What if, at the end of a service, the pastor called any person or couple who wanted prayer for children to come forward and then asked others in the congregation to gather around them and pray? Not every person grappling with infertility will do this publicly, and that’s all right. But many will. And even those too embarrassed to come forward will be encouraged by a church willing to pray for those hurting this way. The pastor could pray for God’s gift of children for these couples, either through biological procreation or through adoption, whichever the Lord should desire in each case.

Regardless of how you do it, remember the infertile as the world around us celebrates motherhood. The Proverbs 31 woman needs our attention, but the 1 Samuel 1 woman does too.

August 20, 2015

Andy Stanley: Love, Sex and Dating

Eschewing the standard Christian Television approach, Andy Stanley and the staff at North Point in Atlanta have been buying time on local NBC stations after Saturday Night Live. The repackaged sermon video is called Your Move, and the website is YourMove.Is

Today, if you have 28.5 minutes; we’re going to watch one of Andy’s most popular messages, which is also a book and a curriculum, The New Rules for Love Sex and Dating. This is the first of several episodes and deals with The “Right Person” Myth.

February 14, 2015

Love That is not Recognized: Thoughts for Valentine’s Day

Filed under: children, family, marriage — Tags: , , , — paulthinkingoutloud @ 6:06 am

heart sandwich

I have a favorite lunchtime sandwich consisting of at least two types of lettuce and a mix of tomatoes, peppers and cheese.  My wife makes them for me, and if my schedule required me to need to take a lunch every day, I could eat them every day. Sometimes they’re on a Kaiser bun, and sometimes, they’re on a whole wheat bun like the one in the picture.

Not too long ago, I was having a post-lunch phone call with Ruth and I commented that the way she had cut the bun and placed the sandwich formed a heart shape.

“Did you know that today’s sandwich forms a heart?” I innocently asked.

“Yes…” she replied but there was something implicit in the short reply that I needed to pursue.

“How long have you been doing this?”

“Years.”

And then after a long silence, I said, “I guess I never noticed; I just opened up the package and started eating.”

We have a word for love that is not returned, unrequited love, but what about unnoticed love? What about the person who pours love into a spouse, a child, an elderly parent; and that love simply flies over their head?

Using The Five Love Languages as a template, this would consist of words of affirmation that aren’t truly heard, physical touch that is misinterpreted, gifts that are not appreciated, quality time that isn’t seen as an investment in the other person, or acts of kindness that are written off due to a sense of entitlement or are simply missed as in the example above due to distraction?

Put yourself in my place for a moment. I would have to ask myself, What other little acts of love am I missing? Probably more than just than one. What about similar ‘messages’ from my children, or my co-workers, or people in my church?

But then again, perhaps this is partially about unrequited love. Simply put, we talk a lot about the ‘I love you return.’ Someone says ‘I love you’ and there is an expectation that the context or the relationship is such that the other person will say it back. When they don’t, there’s that awkward silence.

So basically, there’s a situation here where someone has been saying they love me to me every workday at noon, and I wasn’t responding. Instead, I would phone after lunch and say things like ‘Did you remember to pay the water bill?’ or ‘We’re having a really slow day today and what’s making it worse is that…’

So I need to say something like, ‘Thanks for today’s sandwich; I love you, too;’ and by rough estimates, I need to say it about 500 times to make up for past deficiencies.

Happy Valentine’s Day, Ruth.

I love you.


For everyone else, here’s a summary of the love languages from FierceMarriage.com; click the image to read the accompanying article and check out the book by Dr. Gary Chapman where you buy quality Christian books.

love languages


We were also married on Valentine’s Day.  I’ve written about that twice before:

Given the nature of Canadian winters, we celebrate on a 6-month offset, on August 14th.


The weekend link list appears tomorrow

 

 

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